[0:00] Well, all I can say is, may the state be to whom it may concern. I've had several requests, I shouldn't say several, but at least two.
[0:16] One from a friend in England, and then also one from a friend here in the United States. And they wanted to know a little of the history of the Strict Baptist here in USA.
[0:30] Some of it, of course, I might be acquainted with, but much of it, of course, I have no knowledge. As to the early days of any Strict Baptist being in the States, all I can say that I have noticed on some of the old gospel standards, that is in the 1800s, that there was mention, one of the places in New York, and also I seem to remember seeing some names mentioned also there in Canada.
[1:04] And other than that, I know of no early establishment of any Strict Baptist churches which had been associated with the gospel standard societies.
[1:16] You probably know there are what they call strict and particular Baptist churches even in the States at our present day, of which I have very little knowledge.
[1:29] And, however, they've never been associated with the gospel standards. Now, I can only give you a little history of what I know about the early or even of the present churches here in the United States.
[1:47] The one that I can give you just a little history, and before I go any further, I might mention this. Not that I have very much knowledge of this, but I feel possibly I would have a little more knowledge than anybody else at the present.
[2:08] I'll probably explain this a little later. You probably know that there was, in the early 1900s, there were some people who lived in Cleveland, who apparently immigrated from England, who were amongst the Strict Baptists there.
[2:29] You'll have to excuse sometimes my expressions and language. I'll probably be talking in circles once in a while, but I'll try to do the best I can. They settled in Cleveland.
[2:42] I cannot give you much history why they came over, but no doubt because of hard times, unemployment in England, and hoping to come to the United States, apparently hoping that they can find some employment or something to provide for their families.
[2:59] Many of, of course, the immigrants who came from Europe in those days felt that they wanted a future for their children. Now, they organized there in Cleveland, Ohio, but they called Salem Strict Baptist Church.
[3:17] This was organized in 1907, and they wrote the Gospel Standard Societies in England, hoping that they might join with them and follow the same procedures as they did.
[3:31] They did use the Gatsby Hymn Book and, of course, followed the writings of J.C. Philpott and so forth. There was a man amongst them called Robert Mills, who apparently they felt and did, but was able to speak, of some exercise into the ministry.
[3:54] They elected Robert Mills to be their pastor, and how long and actually he served as their pastor is difficult to say. But as I say, it was organized in 1907 with him, their pastor.
[4:09] Now, he did die in 1916. Whether he had ill health near the end and was not able to preach near the end, I cannot say. A man by the name of Thomas Pike was appointed deacon.
[4:25] In their early days, they met in a hall, in a rented hall, and there they organized themselves, and how many actually became members and organized as a church, I cannot tell.
[4:42] The minutes of that church would be in the hands of Gordon Sumption, of whose address I believe you already know, there in Cleveland. He's a very private person, and we ourselves have had very little, been able to get very little information from him of that past, and even have kind of made some hints that those minutes ought to be placed as possibly, would be nice if we could place them in the library here of our Zion Baptist Church, because they would give us some of the history, no doubt, of some of the Baptist circles, of that particular Baptist circle.
[5:27] In 1916, Mr. Stanley Sumption arrived from England. To my knowledge, he was never invited, however, he came here because there was no work for him in England, he being a masonry man or a bricklayer, and he came there to Cleveland.
[5:48] Now, this is what his son told me. He claims that he came to this little cause there, which was meeting in this hall. Well, at that time, apparently, Robert Mills was not able anymore to speak.
[6:03] I cannot give you the details because it seems the same year also that he did die because he died in the fall of the year, but it appears as if it was earlier in the fall of the year that Mr. Sumption did come.
[6:17] Mr. Sumption was an ordained already minister in England, not an established church, not an established pastor of any particular church, put it that way, but he was sent out from the church at Malmesbury, which is in Wilshire, I'm quite sure.
[6:39] That's near there anyways, not too far from Chippenham. Malmesbury. And he was sent forth from that church into the ministry, and he was an itinerary minister in England.
[6:52] How long he served in the itinerary ministry there, I cannot tell, but he was comparatively young when he immigrated here to the United States. He came into the service, and it wasn't long when they did ask him if he was a minister, and he mentioned that he was.
[7:16] And, of course, he gave some of his credentials and where he came from and so on and so forth. And they asked him then to become their minister. They felt that they did not want to meet any more than that hall because the hall was used through the week as a dance hall, and they was able to use it in their Sunday services.
[7:34] I happened to notice in one little pamphlet that I had received from their old books that they paid $2 for the rent.
[7:48] That's all I know. Well, nevertheless, he being a masonry or bricklayer, he offered to build to them a chapel with, of course, their own funds. So he built this chapel where he was, and if I may remember, currently, directed in 1970, and shortly after that, of course, they moved into the chapel and they were there until they ceased worshipping together.
[8:27] Now, in, I believe at one time, there must have been about 30, approximately, people who met there.
[8:40] They had their Sunday school and prayer meetings through the week, or Sunday school on the Lord's Day, of course, and then, of course, the prayer meeting through the week. And, apparently, there were some baptizings and some additions amongst several of the people.
[9:00] Shortly before he came, or about the same time he came, there was one family which moved away by the name of Mills, and they moved up into the upper, or up into the state of New York.
[9:15] I shouldn't say the upper state, in the lower, actually, southern part of New York, about Middle Way, near Harpersville. There they bought a farm, and there, the Mills family, which was very large, commenced services in the farmhouse.
[9:33] And some of those who did marry remained close by, and they also met with them in the farmhouse. I understand that in those early 1900s, approximately that time, they had approximately at least 30, 40 people meeting there in this home, that is, these services.
[9:58] First, one of the men took it, and later died, and then finally, Mr. Joseph Mills conducted the service. But as they, when time went on, the others moved away, and finally, the family become quite small, and ended up with, I believe it was, four people, which met there in the home.
[10:21] So actually, they was never organized as a Baptist, as a church at all. In fact, Mr. Joseph Mills, a most gracious man, who led to the services, never was actually baptized himself, although he earnestly contended for the ordinance of believers' baptism as the proper way of baptism, and strongly, was wholeheartedly with the gospel standard people.
[10:58] Now to the church of Cleveland. In 1956, Mr. Sumption, that's Mr. Stanley Sumption, or, excuse me, Sidney Sumption, and sometimes you would see parts of his sermons or articles in the older gospel standards when Mr. Gosden was the editor.
[11:18] I couldn't give you the date. You'd have to look back over in some of those articles or the indexes of those older gospel standards. In 1956, he took a trip to visit England.
[11:30] His wife had already passed away, and while he was in England, he had an accident. He was on a bus which had an accident, and it apparently proved to be finally his death.
[11:47] He was not well, but he intended to come back to the States, but he never did, and he died in England, and of course was buried in England, and I cannot tell you the place.
[11:59] So we find then that not in returning, the two sons, and I do not know how many members were yet existing there in Cleveland at that time, carried on the services.
[12:15] It dwindled down to actually three people. There was his two sons, Gordon Sumption, who was a member and baptized. Then there was Stanley Sumption, who was not a member and not baptized.
[12:31] And then there was a Miss Harmer, who was the organist, who played the organ. She was also one of the members. They continued on in that state till finally they felt it was of no avail.
[12:45] I do believe at that time that the building was acquired by the state and the road was to be put through there or highway, so they disposed of the building and they ceased from meeting together.
[13:01] We always stayed somewhat in contact with Gordon, and occasionally he comes up to visit us here. And maybe some other time, if I ever had the time, or if he does ever come again, to inquire more and more into the history of that particular cause.
[13:24] Now, that's all that I can say about the church there in Cleveland. When I was in England, someone brought me over to the old Malzberry Chapel, which is now closed, however still existing.
[13:40] And there on the wall were pictures taken in 1918 of the church there at Cleveland, as well as its congregation standing on its steps.
[13:53] We do now have those two pictures in our chapel, or in the library of our chapel, as of more or less, because it, well, I'll come to that a little later, because it was actually Mr.
[14:09] Sumption who organized the church here in Grand Rapids in 1947. Now, that's about as much history as I can give you of the Salem Strict Baptist Church in Cleveland, Ohio, organized 1907, and then later the chapel erected in 1917.
[14:36] Mr. Sumption, Sidney Sumption, arrived in 1916 and became their pastor. Now, there is a mixture. I mean, I remember one of the articles, which once appeared in a paper, stated that he received a call while he was in England, but I don't believe that is correct.
[14:55] His son once told me that he came here because there was no work, and he just thought he had come and settled amongst those people there in Cleveland, and they finally invited him to become their minister.
[15:10] Excuse me, our Zion Strict Baptist Church here in Grand Rapids, I believe you have had the history of it up until the time of our, in and through the time when Mr. Taylor was our minister, which would bring you up until about the end of, or the, sometime in the year of 1959.
[15:34] He was called to be there. Now, I believe you have all the other information, how that our church was organized here in 1947 by Mr. Sumption.
[15:45] He came up, I believe, only two times, once to organize and administer the Lord's Supper, and one after at that time, but after that, it just seems like they couldn't get him to come.
[15:58] He wasn't usually well. His wife had not, had been quite ill and didn't dare leave her, and then finally went, of course, to England, and quite sadly to say, we never had seen him since.
[16:14] He was a very godly man, a very reserved person, very much so. Well, anyways, W.S. Taylor became the pastor here of Zion Strict Baptist Church in 1952 and served until 1959.
[16:35] Sad to say, because of a misconduct which wasn't right, and finding a little bit about his past history, he was dismissed in October of 59.
[16:49] immediately upon that, and I think you have the history, and some of the letters, and the correspondence which took place between our church here at Grand Rapids and some of the friends.
[17:09] Immediately, when Mr. Taylor was dismissed, a definite exercise, prayerful exercise, exercise, and great concern amongst the people here at Grand Rapids was that the Lord would send one of his servants.
[17:26] And it was remarkable how it all came about, how that our prayers soon found a place in the heart of one Mr. E.J. Knight, who was an itinerary minister in England.
[17:41] at that particular time, I believe he was in his 50s. And the letters and the correspondence of course can easily be attained, and I believe you have them, was then brought here, he came here and became our pastor here of Zion Strict Baptist Church.
[18:02] He arrived here in November of 1960. So actually it was just very slightly over a year from the time of the dismissal of Mr. Taylor to the time of receiving Mr. E.J.
[18:19] Knight as the minister or pastor. During that interval, of course, we had read sermons and one of the senior deacons would often give a word of exhortation and it was marvelously how the church was maintained and kept.
[18:41] Everybody stood 100% behind the church at that particular time, and the Lord kept us from any confusion or anything which brought any trials or troubles.
[18:55] Pastor Knight then was installed as the pastor of this church in the November of 1960, and he served the church until May of 1976.
[19:17] During that time, as just the usual, we would say, ups and downs, blessings, and the maintaining, I trust and may believe, of the ministry here at Grand Rapids.
[19:30] in the early part of 1976, Pastor Knight, I could sense, begin to more or less speak about, I could, well, put it this way, I felt that close of his ministry was soon coming.
[19:53] and I was the more or less the leading deacon at that particular time.
[20:04] I say this not as any way to promote self. And much of the burden of the church of course laid upon me and of course Pastor Knight, to whom we had a good working feeling or good working arrangement.
[20:24] He come to me one day, and I became very much exercised and concerned about the state of our church or its future, because I had feelings since, and a few little things which came back to me, which he had said to other friends, I felt the time was coming.
[20:52] In my own mind, I had a deep exercise to the ministry, but I kept it to myself, and felt it was nothing but my own pride, and tried as it were again and again to put it out of my mind.
[21:07] I often thought, well, I wonder who we would ever find as a minister. I thought, yes, we could go to England, and maybe there would be some raised up, and some of the names would come in my mind.
[21:21] And all the time, I used to think, well, do we have to always go to England to find a minister? Can't God raise up something here? After all, it's the Lord who's going to call his own ministers and his own servants.
[21:37] And all the time, I had this deep exercise and thought it as much as possible to put it out of my mind, feeling I was the only one who had it to myself. Early in the part of that year, Pastor Knight came to me, and he related his feelings of wanting to return to England, and he knew that I could understand it well.
[22:06] He says, when I came here, I always felt the day would come when I would return back to my family and amongst the churches in England to spend the rest of my days.
[22:20] He was then about in his early 70s, mid-70s, and I could understand it. And then he turned to me and he said, however, I felt I could never leave the church until I had felt someone would be raised up to carry on in my absence.
[22:45] He said, I just felt I could never leave. Well, I kind of thought, oh, I wonder if he has some minister in mind in England who would love to come here. And he says, after much prayer, he turned to me and says, Jay, and my prayers have always been happened.
[23:07] And I felt like a thief found out. I couldn't even speak. I won't go into great details on this particular subject, but he asked me if I had any exercise or concern about the ministry.
[23:23] Has it ever occurred to me? I was speechless. He sensed it. He says, I'll come back and see you next week. He says, let's lay this matter before the Lord.
[23:37] Well, if ever there was a time in my life where I was exercise and darkness, trouble, sorrows, no one knows what I went through.
[23:50] About that time, I won't go into detail of all my exercise, but about that time, I had a relief. The Lord gave me that word.
[24:03] No, I take it back. I still was much tried. So he came back in the following week and he said to me, he said, I want to now talk.
[24:14] He says, have you? And then I told him my burden, my exercise, and how I had put it off. And I even told him some of the little thoughts and words which I felt the Lord in some measure had given me over this.
[24:30] But I said, I still want a word from the Lord to seal it to my own conscience, as I do not want to venture it on my own. He turned to me and he said, what you have already told me of your exercise and concern in this matter, I don't think you will get another word, I think you've already had it.
[24:51] That almost drove me to despair. I begged the Lord for another token, and it was of course a few days later when the Lord cleared the matter up.
[25:03] He then brought the church together, he told them about his plans of returning to England, but he also said that he had been much concerned about this, and then he related a little of my exercise.
[25:22] He then asked me to come up, this is to the church meeting, members only, and asked me to relate some of my exercise in the ministry, and I immediately was dismissed while they discussed it.
[25:34] and I found unanimously they approved of it. I found out later that many of the members were in great exercise wondering when I would go for it, and I felt I was a part of getting to the ministry.
[25:51] And here I always thought I had it all to myself. It was a marvelous comfort, of course, and consolation for myself. Well, all I can say is during these 17 years now that I have been pastor of this church, I have been maintained up until this present day.
[26:12] So here I am. That's about as far as the history. During that time, there's ups and downs, additions, and other sorrows, which will always occur, I suppose, in any church in the world today.
[26:28] During my pastor, we did considerable remodeling of the inside of the chapel, completely. Doing all the walls, benches, ripped out the old organ, which was not in use for many years, and put a library, remodeled completely the downstairs, and really had done a tremendous remodeling or undertaking, of course, of the inside of the chapel.
[27:01] Being an older building, and yet good sound and everything, it needed nothing to be done as it were to the outside. Other than that, I have but little more to say, and so what I can say and maintain now.
[27:17] Now, anytime you want any other questions, which it feels as if I should have given you, and it isn't clear, but I've said either about the two chapels thus far, do feel free to write me, and I will only try.
[27:31] I realize I must apologize for the long delay of this tape. In fact, it isn't only months of delay, I believe it is several years of delay. very little history of the cause in Sheboygan, Wisconsin.
[27:52] Very little is known of its history. It dates back some years, and the present people who aren't attending seems to be able to give me very little information, and I believe they just don't know.
[28:08] So, there I have to give it. Let's just speak. All I know is apparently there were those who immigrated, groups of course, there and settled in Sheboygan, from the Netherlands.
[28:25] Some of them, of course, were believed in the infant sprinkling, but some of them still maintain some Baptistic views, even though from the Netherlands.
[28:38] I do not know their background in the Netherlands, how they ever came across these Baptistic views, because our Baptistic views, that is gospel standard, and strict Baptists, are very little known, I mean, there's hardly anything, I don't know of any causes in the Netherlands of that persuasion.
[29:02] I understand there's Baptist churches, and I do not know much of their background, but they came and they met someplace in Sheboygan, possibly in homes to begin with, this goes back some generations, reading sermons, and with the Dutch language.
[29:21] Apparently, the issue of baptism became greater, and a group there followed the Baptistic views, and another group followed the form of infant sprinkling, and later joined up what they call the Netherlands Reformed Church.
[29:38] So in Sheboygan, there is the Netherlands Reformed Church, and that, of course, is by itself. But this other little group, which stood to the Baptistic views, met together, and finally, a man did erect a little chapel on some ground in the back part of his home, which faced an alley, and was often referred to as the alley church.
[30:07] So they continued there for some time. They had some difficulties over the language barrier, such as returning to the English or maintaining the Dutch.
[30:20] And a couple of the men who were the leaders, and one man who did some of the reading of the sermons, was very poor in his English, so he was very reluctant, as it were, to turn to the English.
[30:35] After some period of time, they more or less instituted the English language. Somehow, someway, they also got acquainted with one of the men whom we formerly used to sit under, that is, before Zion Baptist Church separated itself from what they called Quarry Avenue Baptist Church, which is in Grand Rapids, which later departed from the strict Baptist views, and became more a general Baptist.
[31:07] But at that time, their ministry was sound, as you have the history, no doubt, something of that. He used to also go to, they invited him to come to Sheboygan to speak for them on occasions, and he did.
[31:22] As I understand, his services were mostly in the week and not on the Lord's Day. Apparently, there were some blessings under his ministry, without any doubt, because he was a gracious man.
[31:34] And he did baptize some persons there in Sheboygan. Some of them automatically then became members of the church there in Grand Rapids, not of Zion, but then, because Zion was an orc.
[31:47] And he would go, and then he introduced some of the friends there to meet, that later are older friends of our Zion, which are all dead and buried, introduced them to the older friends, of course, there in Sheboygan.
[32:01] They became a very close friendship. When the church here at Grand Rapids, that signed Baptist Church, separated itself from Quarry Avenue Baptist Church, because the minister there could no more speak because of his stroke, and also because there was a declining there towards the general, because there was inclination towards the general Baptist, churches, they organized what we call our Zion Baptist Church, due course, the history I believe you have.
[32:38] So there was always a close affiliation and friendship between the church here in Grand Rapids and the church in Sheboygan. Many trips back and forth, visiting the friends and so on and so forth.
[32:51] When our first pastor came, that is, Mr. Taylor, he also would go to Sheboygan, sometimes on the Lord's Day, sometimes through the week, and spoke there.
[33:03] After, of course, he was gone, then Mr. Knight did the same thing. When I became pastor of the church in Grand Rapids, then I continued to do the same.
[33:17] And, of course, it was maintained even up until this present. time. However, I do not go as often as I used to, because now they have one of their own established ministers.
[33:29] Now, they never had a minister, all those years, never seemed to have had any desire. They were content with reading the sermons and meeting together.
[33:41] Many of them, though they seen the Baptist views and contended for them, never were baptized by immersion. never feeling that inclination to do so, though they strongly contended for it.
[33:56] And it was really quite amazing how they would contend for it as a word we right to the bone, you know, that it was proper. They stayed close friends, of course, with the Gospel Standard magazine, with their doctrines, their practices, and so forth.
[34:13] When I went amongst them, of course, I tried to encourage them to think of a minister. At that time, there was a younger generation coming up, and they did have much inclination of wanting one.
[34:30] We tried to make some correspondence with England, but I told them we want to be careful, want to make sure that the Lord sends the right one. But then, at that time, of course, remember, we did send a minister out from our Grand Rapids cause here, Mr. Gary Tenbrook, who was a present minister there in Sheboygan.
[34:55] His call to the ministry and so forth would have to be received from him, whose name, of course, appears in the Gospel Standard. He became their minister in September 14th.
[35:13] We installed him as their pastor in 1989, and, of course, has been there since. Up until that time, of course, like I say, there's always been, even at this present time, a very close affiliation between the two churches.
[35:32] I often go down there, and he comes back here, and, of course, and supplies the pool. So that's about all that I can actually give you of the history of the church there in Sheboygan.
[35:45] The dates of the erection to the chapel, the dates of meeting together and organizing, I do not know, and neither does anybody else. So I have to leave it there.
[35:56] a very short rundown of the church there, which is called Old Strict Baptist Church in Choteau, Montana.
[36:11] No doubt you've seen the address and the name listed there, of course, in the Gospel Standard. That, again, I cannot give you many dates, but during the 1930s, in that area, around some time, during the Depression and hard times, a family moved from South Dakota and moved to Montana.
[36:38] There, the man took a loan and got started farming. And he had quite a lot of family, and I believe there were six boys in the family and around four or five girls.
[36:54] Many of the boys stayed in the area and began to farm with their families and so forth. They were of the Netherlands Reformed persuasion. Therefore, they started a little church of their own and then finally organized as Netherlands Reformed Church of Eden Choteau.
[37:15] Later, they built their own new chapel where they are meeting now. Now, in the middle of the 70s, that is 1975, around there some time, and those dates I do not have, one of their elders, Mr.
[37:38] Henry Balma, felt called to the ministry. he went before to the synod of the Netherlands Reformed Church, but was turned down.
[37:55] They've always felt because there were some particular feelings between him and one of the moderators of one of the churches. But anyways, he was not allowed.
[38:07] However, he went back to his own congregation, which was made up almost entirely of families of the Balmas, either their children marrying outsiders and so forth, bringing them in.
[38:22] So it was made up actually of the Balma family. And the size of the congregation wasn't all that bad because it was quite large families and all stayed in the area.
[38:35] He felt still, and the church felt very strong in their mind that he did have a call to the ministry. Now the church rules is this, that the existing elders and the consistory of any church has the authority to send a man into the ministry.
[38:57] So they went on their own and they did send him and ordained him to be their minister. He came under dissatisfaction by the general, the board of the Netherlands Reformed Church.
[39:12] And because of that, they were cut off from the Netherlands Reformed Church. However, they still called to themselves either Netherlands Reformed Church or Netherlands Reformed, or I think they kind of finally just called them Reformed Congregation of Schoto.
[39:29] they followed all the practices and the doctrines of the Netherlands Reformed Church. Then more and more they begin to have some questions as to the form which was read during the sprinkling of infants, feeling that it did not coincide with what they stood for, even does not coincide actually with what the Netherlands Reformed Church stands for.
[39:59] So they altered some of the wording of it to more or less fit what they feel it ought to have been. After some confusion there were some amongst them who had some questions still was sprinkling a proper mold or was the immersion a proper mold.
[40:19] More and more the minister became convinced by the searchings of scriptures that the proper mold of baptism was by immersion. So the funny, strange thing at that time they did both.
[40:34] He himself was baptized by immersion and he baptized some of the members and then later they made it a constitutional that only they would follow strictly baptism by immersion and only the members of the church who were able to speak of a work of grace and had been baptized by immersion.
[41:00] This of course excluded quite a few numbers from being members but it still appeared as if it did not diminish the size of the congregation possibly because there was nowhere else to go.
[41:15] So they continued there more or less as an independent church. church they made some friendly associations with some others primarily amongst what they called the reform baptists but later there was a little falling out amongst them over some issues which I cannot get into and more and more they became more convinced of the doctrines church practice and the way the gospel standard strict baptist churches operated there in England.
[41:54] He then called me and told me he says more and more we feel our union to the gospel standard strict baptist churches and our constitution we have adopted is practically the same.
[42:11] We wondered if you would come out here could we join up with you but it brought quite an issue with me. I says first of all it's not in my power or authority to state whether you can be part of the gospel standard churches that I cannot say.
[42:31] But I says give me some time. I wrote Mr. Ramsbottom and Mr. Ramsbottom who is the editor of the gospel standard returned a letter to me stating he says it was difficult for him to say over there in England as to what the situation there in Montana is.
[42:49] He would have to leave it more or less up to my discretion. I didn't know what to do. So I did go out and I felt an unusual help of the Lord and did feel some union.
[43:03] After some time they requested to become part of the gospel standard churches. The requirement of the gospel standard church is that a church must wait three years after making the request during that time observing whether they followed the practices.
[43:22] After three years they were put on the list and then after a period of time their minister also Henry was put on the list. And therefore they exist today although they have experienced some difficult times yet they remain there yet to this day.
[43:42] we do have some exchange of pulpits once a year usually between them and us. And usually once a year you might add this that we quite often invite an English minister to come and visit us.
[43:59] church and we do this between the three churches. The one in Shoto the one in Sheboygan and the one in Grand Rapids.
[44:11] So that's why we have these three churches at the present and we could only wish that we had a whole list and that there were others to whom we could find like fellowship like we do amongst ourselves.
[44:24] that's about the extent of my history that I can give the churches. If there is more you'll either have to contact the individual churches or you could write me if you think there's something that isn't quite clear and I'll try to give you a better answer than what I have.
[44:43] So I will have to leave it. So farewell. "'